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Ammit · Jun 4, 2017 10:56 AM

This discussion was created from comments split from: PATN1 vs PATN+.

Waldgraf · Jun 2, 2017 3:44 PM

Do we know what determines whether the spots are small or large? Does rerolling the portrait change that?

WindwardFarm · Jun 2, 2017 3:53 PM

That's a good question, I think I'll do a little experiment. Right now, this mare I have has a full body leopard pattern with really small spots. I'm going to re roll her image and see what happens.

WF Sandra Dee 1G PF

Here's the link to her first image only in case the picture here changes too when I re roll her.

WindwardFarm · Jun 2, 2017 3:59 PM

It looks like I wasn't able to save the old images on here correctly, but I rerolled her image several times and her spots stayed small in every reroll, and her pattern was always pretty much full body. Sometimes the pattern extended to her face and legs and sometimes it didn't.

WindwardFarm · Jun 2, 2017 4:01 PM

I'm thinking that spot size might possibly be at least partially determined by whether a horse is het PATN1 or hom PATN1. The first girl I posted with the small spots is het PATN1 and this other mare I have has large spots and is hom PATN1. The horses with the really large leopard spots all seem to be hom PATN1, and the ones with the really small leopard spots all seem to be het PATN1. Some of the medium spot ones I've seen are het PATN1 and some of them are hom PATN1.

WF Reality 1G

fj1482 · Jun 2, 2017 4:17 PM

@WindwardFarm I'm not totally sold on that. Here are a few of mine.

Homo PATN1

907320

890889

887323

Het PATN1

893313

blacksplash2

Waldgraf · Jun 2, 2017 4:19 PM

I was looking through my appys and am also not sure I'm sold. I don't have a lot of homozygous PATN1, but I have both large and small spots. For instance, below are two heterozygous appaloosas. Curious, though, that it doesn't seem like it's completely random - given rerolling doesn't change it.

My Brown Eyed Girl

WG Renlys Fair

WindwardFarm · Jun 2, 2017 4:23 PM

Hmm, then I have no idea what determines spot size. We know Appy doesn't interact with White Factor or KIT mutations (confirmed by Ammit in the thread that explains KIT mutation load) so I doubt WF has anything to do with spot size. It doesn't seem totally random though, since spot size stays the same even if you reroll a horse's image. Maybe I just didn't reroll enough times (I did 5 rerolls on my one mare).

Cheers · Jun 2, 2017 4:36 PM

Ammit has previously stated spot size is a hidden gene. Horses with microdots are likely to throw foals with microdots, horses with the large splotchy dots as more likely to throw them, and a mix of a sire with one and a mare with the other may throw either or something inbetween.

fj1482 · Jun 2, 2017 4:37 PM

Maybe we can do some breeding studies and nail down what is linked to spot size. I don't think its random either. There has to be something that determines it. It may not be visible in the genes when you look at it. It might be something hidden like DP

Waldgraf · Jun 2, 2017 4:39 PM

Oh interesting!

Based on the prevalence of both phenotypes, I'm assuming the microdots are recessive to the larger spots. Interesting to know!

I'll have to look through my stock and see who might be throwing the microdots!

Dinascar · Jun 3, 2017 9:08 AM

Damn - I gelded my micodot appy - I could have tried him with some different appy mares :( Never mind something to trial later. I would be interested to find out what people work out. I must admit I prefer little dots.

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 9:24 AM

I've looked through my breeding stock and found a couple who I think are heterozygous for microdots and a few that are homozygous (if my experimental theory is correct). I plan on doing test crosses with this season!

Dinascar · Jun 3, 2017 9:31 AM

Let us know how it goes Waldgraf. x

StarfireAcres · Jun 3, 2017 11:42 AM

Yes let us know Waldgraf it would be very interesting to find the causes :)

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 3, 2017 1:13 PM

Hm...wondering if we should make a buddy chat for this? I love dp so wouldn't mind doing a dot breeding as well!

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 1:16 PM

That would be awesome! As a newbie, I don't have any buddy chats but I'd be happy to set one up. As a budding scientist (I'm starting vet school in August, hoping to emphasize on reproductive medicine and genetics), I plan on documenting my "experiment."

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 3, 2017 1:18 PM

Well, I could certainly help! I have quite a few appys, and will be breeding my Stars and Stripes appy boy to my appy mares that aren't in pasture. A bigger focus group is always better when experimenting.

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 1:20 PM

Wonderful! I've set up a Microdot Appaloosa Breeding chat. I consider myself an official MABbie.

WindwardFarm · Jun 3, 2017 1:22 PM

I can definitely help too! I have quite a few appaloosas in my herd that I'll be breeding. Although most of mine have other patterns besides appaloosa so I'm not sure how much help that will be. Sometimes the appy pattern isn't visible when it's combined with other patterns.

Cheers · Jun 3, 2017 1:24 PM

Where are you going to vet school, Waldgraf? I graduated from University of Queensland 5 years ago this December. Good luck! It's a hard slog but I mostly love being a vet!

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 1:27 PM

I'll be going to Washington State University in Pullman, Washington. I'm very much looking forward to it! I'm a non-traditional student (apparently, the fancy term for being old in student terms), but I've been the animal care field my whole life.

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 3, 2017 1:30 PM

I find the older students the most dedicated. And easy to get along with lol.

And same, about the patterns. Just going through my herd and I'm going to classify them all. Going to make a spread sheet, and wondering if I should up it up on the fb page for others to see. Also have to go back and look at the stallions that I bred to, and then sold, or those that had both parents I sold. Going to be fun!

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 1:50 PM

Haha - I apologize, @RedDeeFarms, for hijacking your thread here! If I know how to split threads (if we even have the ability) I would!

Interestingly enough, I have two snowflake stallions. One has large splotches:

HR8 King In The North

The other is homozygous Llp, so there are not spots to go off of:

HR6 Firenze

I don't know if I was just lucky and the two boys I chose for snowflake carried microdots, or if snowflake increases the chances.

Both of them have thrown appies with microdots. For Firenze, of those with visible blankets, roughly half appear to have smaller spots. My hypothesis is he's homozygous recessive.

King in the North only threw one microdot out of 33 foals - from a non-Appaloosa mare. He's where my recessive theory comes from.

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 3, 2017 2:08 PM

Looking at my lines I have bred a LOT of them to non-appys....so this is going to be fun lol. Some of them have the same dad, so thinking of adding him into my list.

Ammit · Jun 3, 2017 2:16 PM

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 2:17 PM

I've noticed that, as well! Most of my microdot offspring have been with non-appy mares. I have a spreadsheet with all my breeding stock and have started noting these guys!

One, in particular, has produced three foals - two of which expressed microdots when bred to two different appy studs.

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 2:17 PM

@Ammit, I think we're having just as much fun watching ourselves!

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 3, 2017 2:20 PM

Well, if anyone is interested, here's the link to my working document on gmail/google/whatever it's called. Still editing, and still working out my herd. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MHwrWoN0c1AGXze6ChYmDK8S2lkU8e6cGBMZROQakC0/edit?usp=sharing

Waldgraf · Jun 3, 2017 2:23 PM

Ooo interesting! I'll have to summarize my data as well! But, that will have to wait until I'm at least halfway done with this scholarship application.

fj1482 · Jun 3, 2017 2:27 PM

I will certainly be keeping notes as well on my breeding and post what I find.
@Ammit what's funny is you know the answer but we are having fun trying to figure it out :)

Haltanny · Jun 4, 2017 1:19 AM

I'd like to help here too. I have a few microdots I believe.

StarfireAcres · Jun 4, 2017 10:54 AM

Haha Ammit to funny lol

Ammit · Jun 4, 2017 10:57 AM

I will just say you guys are oversimplifying spot size. :D

ConfluenceFarms · Jun 4, 2017 1:02 PM

Personally, I believe that Ammit LIVES for these moments!

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 4, 2017 1:10 PM

.....oh no....don't tell me that there is more than 2 alleles for it! Part of the reason why I liked this game was that I couldn't see any super duper long lines of genes linked to one certain colour >.<

SandycreekFarm · Jun 4, 2017 1:41 PM

When Ammit was reworking the game's Appaloosa complex, she mentioned, probably more than once, that there are an exceedingly "complex" assortment of elements that made the programming a serious challenge. She said that only a few of them would be visible in the results of the genetic test, although many of them were being included behind the scenes. Well, that's what I understood from her comments, anyway. Please correct any errors, Ammit.

Waldgraf · Jun 4, 2017 1:56 PM

Alrighty, I think I have an updated hypothesis! From what I can tell, there are three separate phenotypes. This invalidated the simply dominance theory (dominant = splotches, recessive = microdots). My current sample group is 73 Appaloosas that display spots (not including varnish, snowcap). I admit, I've been using M/m to designate the 'theoretical' gene. M=dominant, m=recessive.

The overall size of the horse appears to contribute to the size of the spots, so I've included examples of Drafts and Cobs, when I have them. Despite the moderate amount of variation, the trend holds between the horse sizes.

Phenotype 1: Splotches (Big spots) represent 41% of my Appaloosas with spots.

FR Jarla S6

FR Little Miss

Phenotype 2: Intermediate Size (Smaller spots) represent 43% of my spotted Appaloosas

FR Betty

FR Might Mouse S22

Phenotype 3: Microspots (Pinpoint spots) represent 16% of my spotted Appies

WG In the Knox

FR Dalia

My current working theory is this gene shows incomplete dominance. (Unless it's as complicated as epistasis! Which would be cool - but take more tests!) MM = large splotches, Mm = intermediate and mm = microdots. I've gone through and identified all of my Appaloosa stock as best I can and will plan some test crosses to test my theory!

Haltanny · Jun 4, 2017 10:48 PM

If your theory is correct the splotch x splotch = splotch. And micro x micro = micro. Can't wait to see the results.

Haltanny · Jun 4, 2017 10:50 PM

I think there are likely multiple genes responsible for spot size as well as for density of the spots, myself. But I don't have a working theory yet, just a hypothesis. I also think there at least 4 or 5 spot sizes. But I look forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with.

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 5, 2017 12:10 AM

Now that is a keen eye! I'd probably have to go through mine and double check everything....my herd size is much smaller though.

Waldgraf · Jun 5, 2017 9:29 AM

Haha - it's less a keen eye and more a matter of spending way too much time staring at my spotted horses! I admit, there were a few that were hard to distinguish but I think I've learned to recognize the differences. I have 8 crosses planned for tonight and will post them after work!

Waldgraf · Jun 5, 2017 11:05 PM

Here are the test crosses:

1) Mm - Intermediate X Mm- Intermediate = Can produce any (25% chance splotch, 50% Intermediate, 25% Microdot).

Stallion:

HR9 Alagaesia

Mare:

FR Sally Anne S9

Result: Splotches - MM

933765

2)?? - unknown, snowcap blanket X Mm - Intermediate - Any are possible, depending on stallion's genotype

Stallion:

HR11 Cernunnos

Mare:

FR Pepper Jelly S11

Result: Due to patterning, can't see spots.

933764

3) Mm - snowcap blanket but based on past breedings, suspect Intermediate X mm - Only Intermediate or microdots possible, depending on stallion's genotype

Stallion:

HR20 Absit Omen

Mare:

FR Penny S20

Result: Microdots - mm

933771

4) snowcap blanket, but based on past breeding I believe he is mm X m? - non-Appaloosa who has thrown microdots in the past - If stallion genotype correct, Intermediate (50%) or microdot (50%)

Stallion:

HR6 Firenze

Mare:

FR Belle Rouge S6

Result: Intermediate - Mm

933761

5)snowcap blanket, but based on past breeding I believe he is mm X m? - non-Appaloosa who has thrown microdots in the past - If stallion genotype correct, Intermediate (50%) or microdot (50%)

Stallion:

HR6 Firenze

Mare:

FR Blue Mountain S6

Result: Microdot - and surprise snowflake!

933763

6)snowcap blanket, but based on past breeding I believe he is mm X M? - non-Appaloosa who has thrown splotches in the past - If stallion genotype correct, Splotches (50%) or Intermediate (50%)

Stallion:

HR6 Firenze

Mare:

FR Tara S6

Result: Small blanket, so difficult to tell but think microdots (mm)

933762

7) MM X Mm - Produces either Splotches (50%) or Intermediate (50%).

Stallion:

HR8 King In The North

Mare:

FR Belle PF S8

Result: Splotches - MM

933772

8) MM X m? - non-Appaloosa who has thrown microdots in the past - Either Splotches (50%) or Intermediate (50%)

Stallion:

HR8 King In The North

Mare:

FR Delight PF S8

Result: - Not appaloosa

933773

Conclusion - So far, none of the results contradict the MM, Mm, mm theory!

fj1482 · Jun 6, 2017 10:17 AM

So here are my findings. Going with what I believe, that spot size is hidden like DP.
Mm+Mm=Mm

WO2 929067

Mm+Mm=mm

WO2 929066

I don't have any with the big dots yet. The few that I have all came from appy mares who didn't have blankets so I can't tell what those mares would be hiding. All the foals came out with big dots like the stallion. Similar to this girl.

934461

fj1482 · Jun 6, 2017 3:55 PM

I have some more research.
Here is a foal who's sir has huge spots. I would consider him MM. It's dam I would consider Mm. This foal I would label Mm.

929073

MM+Mm=MM

929080

None of this sirs foal ended up with micro dots. If I'm right that there is a micro dot gene and a huge dot gene, hence the three different size spots this stallion should never end up with a micro dot offspring.

RipshinCreekFarm · Jun 6, 2017 3:59 PM

Interesting hypotheses. About to look through my applies.

fj1482 · Jun 6, 2017 4:06 PM

After reading through the thread of some of the comments I had yet to read I believe the same thing @Waldgraf does. To simplify things I'm going to go back and label my foals with the Mm, mm, or MM that she uses.

fj1482 · Jun 6, 2017 4:17 PM

I have one mare left who is mm

909854

I'm going to breed her to this guy who is MM

WO1 Braeburn

We should end up with a Mm foal. I have to wait for the end of the auction though because I have depleted my hb's down to a crazy low amount with all the breeding I have done lol

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 6, 2017 4:34 PM

I'm going to do the same too. I just realized that, in my moment of brilliance, putting my chart on gmail documents means I can access it no matter what computer I am on!

fj1482 · Jun 6, 2017 5:11 PM

And the resulting foal has no spots rofl

936890

ObsidianKitsune · Jun 6, 2017 5:17 PM

Don't you just love it when that happens? xD

And I've edited my document. I have two mares who I am utterly confused if they are Mm or mm. One of them is a grey and her appy white is covering basically all of her, and the other has such minimally expressed dots that I can't decide if they're big enough for her to be het, or if they're small enough for her to be a micro.... Here they are, if you guys can help me. I put both of them as Mm just to be safe. No babies yet, which is annoying, and the grey is going to be put to my Macchiato boy this season most likely.

Plane of Dotty

Dreaming in Varnish

I also found out that the Conversations Hearts RS that I used to have must have been carrying MM because both of his boys are large spotted!

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