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Waldgraf · Apr 27, 2017 8:56 PM

I believe I've read somewhere that the snowflake pattern is only visible in homozygotes. However, I've noticed in a few cases where some heterozgygotes seem to have some faint snowflake patterning. Not nearly as vivid or large as the homo comrades, but visible.

Here's an example from one of the foals Why The Long Face is auctioning:

JG2 Snow Boy

As well as an example from one of my foals:

Au Het Snowflake Chest

First question: Am I crazy? Or seeing something else? I think I've heard that varnish can be mistaken for snowflake but don't know how to tell the difference between the two.

Second question: One of my appaloosa stallions was bred to a solid mare and a non GMTed App mare and produced these two foals. Am I mistaken that they're showing a similar faint snowflake pattern? If so, does that mean the stallion is heterozygous? Or, am I again mistaking varnish?

FR AO 9

HR AO 6

Salvistar · Apr 27, 2017 8:59 PM

Ammit has posted in the snowflake chat before that heterozygous snowflake horses will show more varnishing than they normally would have.

That being said I don't know if you could tell a difference 100% for sure between varnish and the heterozygous snowflake.

AztecArabians · Apr 27, 2017 9:24 PM

Sorry to hijack @Waldgraf - does this mean this mare is Het? I created her for an ET mare, then saw how much varnish she has at only 4 years old, so it surprised me!

851249

Waldgraf · Apr 27, 2017 9:39 PM

I imagine it'd be easier to tell with your mare after she was color tested. I know I've had a few with the ghosting / almost roan-y patterning and assumed those were just varnish.

I assume, waiting for some test breeding would probably be the best way to tell! I'm going to make a homozygous mare before the month is over and will try crossing the stud with her!

AztecArabians · Apr 27, 2017 11:54 PM

Actually I didn't think of the roaning/even rabicano....But just a bay appaloosa -
eE aA CC dd gg ff SS PP KitKitw20 LLlp ECA3P+ECA3P+ WF: None

Bourbon · Apr 28, 2017 4:09 AM

I just had a look through my barns to see if I can see the difference since I had some unexpected het girls. Unfortunately they were roan and grey so I can't tell :-((

AztecArabians · Apr 28, 2017 4:15 AM

I also have this girl - again, no roaning/grey/rabicano genes, but the excessive varnish! Probably just a variation normal varnish, but cool either way; they were created to be ET mares, even better if possible Het.

851247

Bourbon · Apr 28, 2017 4:32 AM

Digging through my herd, and I can't really tell a whole lot. I think a het SF might have ever so slightly more prominant little white flecks/freckle things but for the most part they just blend in with the rest of the varnish sort of make-up. So my sciencey response is, no freaking clue.

Het SF

II Blondie

I Beauty Within ***
^ I know she's grey, but I'm going to dig through her lineage to see if there's anything that looks like it could carry SF? OK, so quickly dug through, ofc I haven't crossed any of her descendants to an app...

----

Confirmed no SF

I First Snow

I Fuel To The Fire

-----

I think these aren't ???

III Cupids Arrow

IV Just Talk

III Going Down

V Nineteen

V Shiny Butt

----

I think these might be???

VI Talking Band

WindspunFarms · Apr 28, 2017 5:54 AM

You'll often see the slight, faint spotting on Appys that only have 1 Lp gene..In the real world, they would be considered "characteristics only" or CO

Im not sure if this would help but here's a link to a thread about appy coat patterns in which I posted a couple of links to charts that explain the patterns and help explain the snowflakes

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/21760/what-type-of-appy-is-she#Item_8

HeritageStables · Apr 28, 2017 10:51 AM

This is along the same line... lmk if I should create my own post. Is this a snowflake? Would be kind of crazy cool if it was since I named her Snow in Summer not expecting snowflakes. http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=858522

WindspunFarms · Apr 28, 2017 11:07 AM

@heritage She doesnt appear to be snowflake. She's Lp ...although, from what Ive read in the forums, some foundations may actually be het snowflake without you knowing..
By her appearance as is, she does not appear to be a homo snowflake

Waldgraf · Apr 28, 2017 3:15 PM

Good information and thank you for the link for the chart! I did a bit of an experiment this morning and GMTed a new mare who had a respectable amount of the fine white spitting. It did, indeed, take two copies of the gene to make her phenotypicly snowflake.

Goobanni · Apr 28, 2017 6:08 PM

This girl is HET snowflake, from a normal foundation create. I was very lucky. Even more lucky to have bred her to a HET Stallion that was also an unknown carrier.

GB First Snow Crystal

Waldgraf · Apr 28, 2017 6:28 PM

Haha - Man, I'm currently having flashbacks of statistics class. I'm dying to know the probability of that occurring!

ObsidianKitsune · Apr 28, 2017 6:33 PM

@Waldgraf Biology has you covered with punnet squares! Both horses would be Ss, the s being the snowflake gene in this equation. The possible offspring are SS, sS, Ss, ss. This means that there was a 25% chance of a hom snowflake foal being bred.

Waldgraf · Apr 28, 2017 6:43 PM

Ah yes! The probability of a snowflake foal from the pairing is pretty straight forward.

I was thinking more of the probability of two horses who were unknown snowflake carriers being bred and creating a phenotypic snowflake! We'd have to know the frequency of unknown snowflake genes to solve that problem, but I suspect it's somewhere between shark bite and lottery winning!

Cheers · Apr 28, 2017 6:49 PM

I suspect Waldgraf is referring to the statistical likelihood of a random create having het Snowflake, and then the likelihood anyone has 2 unknown random create carriers that they breed together to find a homozygous foal.

Certainly makes you wonder how many are running around!

ObsidianKitsune · Apr 28, 2017 7:19 PM

Ah, true, didn't think of that! But considering the lottery (on the game) seems to happen quite frequently, that could be quite a bit gap lol. Does anyone even know the probability of a regular create getting a snowflake gene?

Goobanni · Apr 28, 2017 8:25 PM

The Stallion wasn't mine. He was up for public breeding :) I didn't get lucky enough to have two lol (That I know of) :D

Waldgraf · Apr 28, 2017 8:55 PM

Haha - oh no! This complicates the statistical analysis. We may never know the answer...

<):) <br />
I'm really not sure what that emoji is supposed to be doing. Figured (s)he worked for a conversation involving so many unknowns.

WindspunFarms · Apr 29, 2017 3:54 AM

If the probability of getting twins is 1 in 10,000 I bet the likelyhood of getting a snowflake appy is about the same if not higher lol...Dunno tho...but I imagine they'd be super rare.
Could you imagine breeding a pair of your foundie appys and taaaadaaaaa...looking at a snowflake foal on your puter screen?! That would be an awesome surprise!

Goobanni · Apr 29, 2017 4:22 AM

It was a lovely surprise @WindspunFarms, the only problem is that my mare was one of my first creates and I didn't understand even breeding (Or what a snowflake was) so the foal is really uneven but I will keep her for some pretty show ponies :D At least I found out my Foundation Mare is HET snowflake and the owner of the Stallion now knows he is HET snowflake :D

GB Snow Hazel GII

DragonRun · Apr 29, 2017 4:23 AM

I found one of my foundation appy create mares was a carrier after I bred her to my hom stallion. I have heard about more spontaneous carriers than twins so I think the probability of a random snowflake carrier is probably greater than having twins.

Ammit · Apr 29, 2017 5:08 AM

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