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RoseFlute · Jan 13, 2016 8:26 PM

83 Almost makes me want to find some patterning to apply to my herds. :P

Cheers · Jan 13, 2016 8:47 PM

Wow Abbey! I love those Sabinos together and it looks like fireworks! Plus, the name is excellent...

PaintsStables · Jan 13, 2016 10:20 PM

WOW Abbey, she is too cool! Fantastic pattern!

I got my third Brindle from breeding two of my horses. But SMA got her too......

Spring Ranger:http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=347777

Cheers · Jan 13, 2016 10:35 PM

Paints, I feel your pain. I'm so sorry!!!!

jailee · Jan 13, 2016 10:42 PM

A few of my favorites

The Girls
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=343385

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=347703

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=347687

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=339416

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=337795

The Boys

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=347688

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=337791

PaintsStables · Jan 13, 2016 10:52 PM

Thanks Cheers! I feel your pain also. He is sooooo brown and brindle.

So cute jailee!

Cheers · Jan 13, 2016 11:59 PM

Jailee, your Smoked Stars is really lovely! And I love Genesis!

Baya · Jan 14, 2016 4:19 AM

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=348811

This fillys dots * drool*

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 6:34 AM

Aw, I love that white snowflake. Does she have pearl?

MoonAcre Stables · Jan 14, 2016 8:05 AM

Abbey LOVE that filly!

My favorite colt is this boy

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=338919

Broke my heart to geld this one lol

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=346760

Absolutely in loveeee with this filly

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=338980

This filly is my favorite girl that got spayed so far. Dang SMA

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=340562

Baya · Jan 14, 2016 8:08 AM

White snowflake?

PaintsStables · Jan 14, 2016 8:16 AM

He tested Buckskin, I love how dark he is, he almost looks brown to me.

Walla Walla Final: http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=349000

Salvistar · Jan 14, 2016 11:50 AM

Jailee, love smoked stars! Super cute.

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 12:00 PM

I got two girls like this. Unfortunately both were caught by SMA. I noticed if the mares don't sit in the pasture before breeding you stand a higher chance of the foals being caught by SMA. In fact I think every time I've bred foundations right away I think all the fillies were caught by SMA. Is it just me or am I on to something? Either way I am now on a mission for a new line. I love this.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=348945

RoseFlute · Jan 14, 2016 12:26 PM

Wow! I think the parents maybe had DP, since she's that dark.

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 12:49 PM

I was wondering that too but she is also homo sooty. It's so hard.

Cheers · Jan 14, 2016 12:54 PM

She's very dark for homo sooty in my opinion...and drop dead gorgeous!

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 12:57 PM

I have two mares, her mom and the mare from the other filly, That are now in the pasture and will sit there until next season and will hopefully get a shot to breed them again to Abbey's BEE Wheres The Money. Hopefully I'll end up with the same color but an intact one lol.

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 12:59 PM

Yeah, this one: http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=343385

She's got white 2 and a snowflake appaloosa pattern. And blue eyes to boot.

Baya · Jan 14, 2016 1:01 PM

Now i see it. Nice

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 1:01 PM

Super hard to tell DP on sooty bay, but I think your girl might be. Funny because both parents look almost the same color.

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 1:26 PM

I wonder if both of ours are het DP? If your man is still up for stud next season I'll breed them again. Who knows I might get a homo DP bay next time :) wishful thinking lol.

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 1:49 PM

Here is the other girl. Now that I'm looking at them side by side this one is not as dark. Maybe the first one is DP?

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=348946

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 1:58 PM

You know the more I look at the parents the more I wonder. If both are het DP, maybe this foal is Homo DP and with her homo sooty she's ultra dark. Looks like I got some test breeding to do. Hopefully next season I can pull off this color again. Are the genes that make bay dominate over chestnut? I'm thinking the only way to find out is to get an intact foal from this pair again that's the same dark color and then test breed it to a homo sooty chestnut. If I get liver then there's my answer.

RoseFlute · Jan 14, 2016 2:06 PM

A horse with Agouti can technically be bay or chestnut, so it won't be too bad.
I don't think that you can get the same shades, though because the base color of bay is slightly darker than the base color of chestnut, so the bay is always going to be slightly darker than a chestnut, until you get to black chestnuts, obviously.
But you should be able to replicate the same darkening gene combination in a chestnut, just by breeding to a chestnut with enough sooty.

Cheers · Jan 14, 2016 2:36 PM

The difference between chestnut and bay is two fold. First they must have Agouti--A, A+ or At instead of recessive a. Second, to express the agouti, they must have black/Extension or E. So if either of the parents of your filly are homozygous for extension, you will always get bay or black horses when you breed that horse, never just a chestnut. Chestnuts require recessive extension or ee.

Your 3 main color groups require extension and agouti in these combinations:

Black: E_ and aa
Bay: E_ and A_ (or A+ or At)
Chestnut: ee and any agouti

Obviously cream, champagne and gray affect the colors as well, but it is things like this that will always affect your pursuit of chestnuts, and especially brown! I am ALWAYS looking for black mares or homozygous recessive bay (aa) mares for my brown herd, since A and A+ cover up brown.

The reason to try to breed chestnuts from unconfirmed bay DP is that chestnuts will test as Liver if they have 3 darkening genes--i.e., SstySsty and DP. But it gets tricky!

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 3:27 PM

That's why I was thinking to breed this pair again in hopes of getting an intact foal with the same color and then breed that foal to a chestnut. Because then it becomes easy to tell if its DP or not. I wasn't sure how the bay genes work though. The mare to that dark filly is EeAA. The stallion is EeAA so any resulting foals could be eeAA 25%, Ee 50%. or EE 25%. Obviously all foals would be AA from that pair. I'm going to assume the above dark bay filly is EeAA. So if I have an intact the same color and bred to a chestnut then I would have 50% chance of getting a liver assumeing the filly in question is Homo DP. Hopefully I'm making sense and someone can tell me if I'm right.

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 3:53 PM

FJ, your stallion and mare are both Ee AA, which means if you breed to a chestnut you have a 50% chance of chestnut. I can't remember if you're upgraded but if you'd like a Remember Paris straw for next season I'll send you one. He's a black chestnut frame tobiano. Might give you more info.

I have a couple of Freaky Friday mares I could potentially flush, too, but they are both black-based (Ee), which would reduce your chances of chestnut.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=307177

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 3:58 PM

How bay genes work:

You need at least one Extension (capital E) and one Agouti (capital A) to get bay. E_ aa is black. ee (agouti doesn't matter) is chestnut. Your horses are both Ee Aa, which means the two of them together have a 25% chance of throwing chestnut (also a small chance of black and a large chance of bay).

Does that make sense?

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 4:09 PM

No I'm lost now lol. The stallion who gave me that dark filly is yours, BEE Wheres The Money. Unfortunately SMA got her but now her color has me wondering if shes at least het for DP or even homo DP for that matter. My plan is this:

1. rebreed my mare to your stud next season and get intact foal. (hopefully get a foal that is the same color, really, really dark)
2. Breed foal to chestnut who carries homo sooty.
If a resulting foal CT tests liver then Bay parent would be Homo DP and both mine and your stallion would be Het for DP

Now if everything above turns out to be true I would have a 50% chance of getting a liver foal out of the second pairs breeding?

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 4:18 PM

It's really the filly's color I'm wondering about not my mare or your stallion.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=348945

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 4:31 PM

Ok I think I see what your saying. If I breed the mare to this filly to Remember Paris who is eeaaDpDp then I would have a 25% chance of a liver foal being eeAaDp or eeAaDpDP or a 25% chance of the foal being Bay with 25% chance or EeAaDP or 25% EeAaDpDp.

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 6:40 PM

I created him, but he's not mine.

If you haven't played with this, try it out.
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/CCalculator1.asp

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 6:54 PM

Oh, that's really nice, love the calculator. I could use my het DP liver chestnut foundation boy and get the same thing, right? If I end up getting a homo Liver chestnut then I know she's carrying DP

Abbey Road · Jan 14, 2016 7:29 PM

Yes.. but if you don't get homz. liver, you still don't know :)

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 7:50 PM

If I bred her to a regular chestnut who is homo sooty and get a het DP then I would know?

Cheers · Jan 14, 2016 7:55 PM

Fj-- In my opinion, if you want to know if the mare is DP, your most feasible option would to be to breed her to a sooty chestnut with no DP. You would be hoping for a liver chestnut foal, which would confirm the mare has DP to pass. However, you might wait several seasons, getting bays or sooty chestnuts before the mare passed her DP and not her Extension, assuming she has DP to pass. I don't know if you have a breeding goal for that girl, but if so, that could be several seasons not moving towards it.

Alternatively, and especially if your goal is to breed DP foals, you could breed her to a known homozygous DP stud. Then all foals would carry at least one copy of DP and if you happened to get a black chestnut, you would know the mare carried DP.

But if your goal is to build a sooty bay line, if she was mine I would enjoy how dark she is, hope she passed that depth of color to her babies, but continue to breed her to sooty bay studs.

Certainly using a het DP chestnut stud gives you a pretty low chance--1 in 8--of getting a homozygous DP chestnut foal.

I should mention that another option does exist if you have a GMT token. You could yum the foal and GMT the E the mare carries to e. She would then be chestnut and if carrying DP, would be liver. This option expires at monthly roll over when she turns 5.

fj1482 · Jan 14, 2016 8:03 PM

I certainly want to keep her bay. I was thinking maybe using her as a start to a bay homo sooty dp line. I could do just like you said though and reverse it afterword so she's bay again lol

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